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Re: Tweaking Vader
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fishfleas2000
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Nov 21 07 7:22 PM
Lee,
The only Talent card that was brought to question was Bliding Surge. I think both Scott and Tim were pretty clear on that point...
Scott,
I really think your main issue here is thinking that the Chokes are useless if the minors are eliminated, and therefore they are bad design.
I then pose some questions...
What do you think of Emperor's Design?
What do you think of Maul's Design (I know you have started this convo)?
What do you think of Anakin's Design?
All of these decks contain cards that become unusable dead weight sometime during the game. I would consider all but Vader in the top half of the deck spectrum. WHich arises my idea... why then is Vader so weak? It's not the dead weight cards... it's the power of other cards in his deck. Choke in my opinion is fine. If you wanted to make a design change then I would only have minor issues with a gain power card in place of 1 Choke. Those issues could be proven unfounded in testing, they are only minor. Also, Seeing as 1/3 of the decks that are in the original game contain some type of card that can become near if not useless then I would say that was in Hasbro's design to do something of this sort.
I also find it intriguing how Hasbro did this to the Dark jedi for the main part, and then added in Anakin as part of his struggle with the dark side. I can't think of any cards in dooku's deck that follow in line with this right off hand... However, the others fit the bill.
Royal Command.
Blinding Surge
Wrath
All three follow this framework. I also find it perfectly fine that Vader's Choke isn't as good as Anakin's Wrath. Vader is weakened by the dark side. As a result he loses the touch with true power in trade for anger.
Another point Tim made was good in my opinion. The division on the deck. I can't remember if I actually replied with any thoughts on that, but I too was thinking the thoughts on even the talent cards are flawed. only 3 of the 12 talent cards could become useless. Even with that most of the time it is only 1-2 that become useless in most matchups. So for the sake of the argument that is 1.5/12 cards that could become useless. I like Royal command less than this card... Now the trick though is that in determining how that truly affects a deck you have to take the whole deck into account which means the fraction goes up to 1.5/31. Now that isn't too bad of a ratio. If you would like I could link you to all kinds of TCGs that would support including a card that has that kinda odds to be useless in the deck, when it does such damage to an entity in the game. Especially an entity that could cause major issues to Vader's game. The minors are probably Vader's biggest nuisance. They are better against Vader than any other character.... That is why he needs to kill them so quickly. That is why he must draw the cards quickly. That is why 6-8 cards can kill off the minors in his deck from any position on the board.
I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, but I do have roughly 13 years experience in game design and deck design for various games. One's I've made and one's I've played. This game at it's heart is a mixed bread of a TCG and a miniatures game. The deck design falls in the TCG type of category. I get the feeling that Tim might have some experience in TCGs in regards to this. I say that because he is thinking like a TCG player.
So maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree scott. I do think at the core though you and I pretty much are on the same page. We think Vader would benefit from having DSD fixed. He has to have some form of obtaining Choke quickly. Possibly YSANC could use a boost. Doing those three things wouldn't change the design, but it would increase it's power. Therefore making a better deck.
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