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Re: Tweaking Vader
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leefreeman
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Jedi Knight
Posts
: 53
Nov 19 07 11:22 PM
QUOTE
(fishfleas2000 @ November 19, 2007 10:12 am)
Lee....
did you not see that Scott and I came to somewhat of an agreement?
Tim and I did lay out some very specific strategic methods, and ways that the cards do work together. Also, how they were intended to work together. Most of Haggs and Roman's argument at it's core just really goes back to cards being weak. That being said, this was just Hasbro's take on Vader. The 3 copies of Choke are just one way of increasing your chances of drawing it. Yes, there are other ways to do it, but the concept is still rellatively the same. The design is good, but hte power level is off.
Fish --
C'mon. Are you serious? You're kidding right? You cite that most of Roman and Scott's argument at its core goes back to the cards being weak?! You asked me if I read your comments and I seriously wonder, did you read Scott and Roman's comments?
Their whole point was not about the weakness of the deck --- it was about the FACT that Vader's cards effectively weaken each other.
I completely see now why Roman and Scott threw their hands up and gave up on this disagreement.
I know this has been stated many times but once again here is my reasoning....and Scott's reasoning....and Roman's reasoning.......
Mace has card drawing ability in his deck which enhances and strengthens his battleminds. Anakin has Calm in his deck which enhances and strengthens his Anger cards. Regardless of the relative strength of the cards themselves, these types of cards.....these relationships between the cards strengthen each other.
Now, Vader on the other hand, is just the opposite. Try to be objective for a moment and think about this. Was that condescending? It wasn't meant to be....I was being serious.
If you choke off 2 troopers, your third choke is worthless AND your wraths become weakened because now you can only damage the major character. Granted, as you have pointed out, having 3 chokes allows you to get them more quickly, but at the minimum, the wraths are WEAKENED because the minors would be dead.
Well, what if you used wraths to their fullest power and destroyed 2 minors and damaged the main guy for 4 or 6 points? Great, but now your chokes are worthless --- all 3 of them. Hmmmm....doesn't it seem that USING some of Vader's cards kind of weaken his other cards??
What about those Dark Side Drains? First of all, the VERY EXISTENCE of the ATE weakens those cards somewhat. If you attack the main guy with them, chances are you won't get much health because he's going to be blocking with something because of the fear of the ATE. Now, you could use those cards against minors and have a much higher likelyhood of getting more life, but once again, if you do that, and maybe kill off a minor or two, your chokes become worthless and your wraths become weakened.
Can't you see how that just by playing Vader's cards that his subsequent cards become weaker? Vader's cards weaken each other. Now, Tim seems to think that "my logic" is flawed here because I'm equating the counterproductiveness of Vader's deck to a design flaw. Well, first of all, I mentioned in an earlier post that it is more of an issue of semantics and it really depended on how you defined "flaw."
I believe Haggerty took a stronger stance than me and actually called it a design flaw, and I can certainly see that. It's very easy to say that Vader's counterproductive talent cards are a design flaw because it should be the designer's intent to make a deck with complimentary cards --- cards that enhance and strengthen each other. Of course, once again, it all depends on how you define flaw within the constructs of deck design.
Bottom line: Vader's cards don't enhance or strengthen each other, and that's just a fact. Now, would you call that a design flaw? That's another debate, but I can tell you now, I would be with Haggerty Roman on this one.
Lee
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