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I will give you the whole ATE doesn't scare everybody now.  I can't say that it still scares every opponent as that is a personal view on the card.  However, the card can and does still win the game for Vader.  This is also the reason the deck is so stinking tricky, strategic, and mind bending...  The path to successfully playing ATE is not an "easy" one, and even then yes it CAN fail.  I will even give you the fact that most players can't get the path to victory to work for them, but alot of that is they don't understand when to play things and if to play things.  Vader is just one tricky bugger.


So, we're basically in agreement here. I'm not saying ATE is *always* an A3, I'm just saying the vast majority of the time it's nothing but an A3 (so much so, as to render those few rare times it isn't a "fluke").

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Second DD to minors:
Alright, you've stated that there is 24 DD to minors.  Yeah that could be overkill, but only 3 cards worth of that is to minors only.  The other cards still function properly against the majors, just as they did before.  If you are looking strictly at total DD to the minors then I can conced this point that  24 is overkill... and there is only need for 2 at most of the DD of 6 cards.  However, there is more to deck design than just power and numbers.  Distribution as it relates to efficiency of drawing plays one of the biggest parts in good deck design.  Vader NEEDS to get rid of the minors, and therefor the extra slot for the extra DD is justified.  I will explain the reason why he needs to get rid of the Minors in a minute. I however, don't see the extra card as working AGAINST the others, but as just excess that is the result of an attempt to bringing more consistancy to the deck.


This where I disagree. There are plenty of other ways to get 2 Chokes into his hand faster without having to make it x3 and give him a useless card. A Gain Power type of card would help him cycle faster, thereby increasing the frequency of Choke. A Future Foreseen type of card would further increase the frequency of Choke, and even a Wookiee Instincts type card would be another option. I agree with you that x3 can achieve what you describe, but IMO, there are "better" ways to increase the frequency of Choke that doesn't leave Vader with a useless card...and this IMO is one of the reasons that makes the deck a poor design. Gain Power would help not only Choke, but every other DD card he has, so clearly it would be a better answer...same thing with Future Foreseen. They've got successful cards that achieve greater frequency in the other decks (Dooku's Gain Power get's Tauntings faster, Emp's FF gets FL faster, etc). So, clearly there are better ways to do it than making it a x3 card that leaves you with a useless copy.

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Third DSD:
I am following you on how this card works against the other cards, but this is one of the major cards I was referring to as needing a power upgrade.  If you up it's power a bit, then all of a sudden it Doesn't work against the other cards.  Why is that then?  It's not flawed design, it is a flawed power level.  Vader needed some healing, but it was poorly implemented.  So I guess I can half give you that point, and you have even agreed that the card would be better if it was a bit more powerful.


So, we agree then...yes, a DSD at A4-6 would go a long way in helping the deck. It would help aleviate the Choke - Wrath - DSD problem, but then you'd still have a Wrath - Choke problem, so only fixing this value doesn't solve the design problem.

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Fourth Killing the Minors:
Typically strategy tends to tell us not to kill all the minors off for an opponent, as it allows them to heal.  However, if you would poll most good players; I truly think you would find that they only look to heal in dire circumstance or when they have a ton of room between the opponent and them.  I will concede that healing isn't good if you are planning on sitting back and trying to DD them to death, but that really isn't what you should be trying to do when you have killed off their minors.  When you are approaching the death of their last minor, then you should be moving in for the attack on the major.  Now assuming that you are close to the opponent then the death of the minors has created quite the dead weight in your hand.  You can't afford to heal, because you need to draw to get to those movement cards and defense cards.  Vader then continues to attack and draw each turn. eventually you will run out of defense or health.


So, we agree that the healing works against his DD from a distance game, this is good. The other part of your argument is very situational. To your "poll" claim, I would say that "in general" you're probably right, but against Vader or other DD characters, I disagree. If you know their only threat is DD, then why wouldn't you heal? Especially if you knew they didn't have movement to catch up to you? I still think the fact that Vader doesn't have movement, pretty much nullifies this argument. Even Tim mentioned that movement is missing from the deck in the very beginning. If you're playing a defense drain game, then you're relying on die rolls to stay adjacent and attack...and as I said, every character except Yoda and Emp have movement to counter this part of his game.

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Fifth YSANC:
Yes this card hoses the specials, especially the movement cards that create headaches for vader. 


Agreed. This works as support...not all that well, but it works.

So, basically the only thing we really disagree on is how killing minors affects his deck. Clearly in team games this works out well (and I have already conceded that point), but in 1 vs 1 I will stay maintain what I said above. In THIS deck killing off minors doesn't help much (unless it's an uber minor like Chewie). In any case, I will take back my older comments that say "this deck is terrible and needs to be reworked completely", because it doesn't need a "complete" overhaul. But I still think that the design could benefit from at least one less Choke. I also think it could benefit from one or more of the following: movement, power defense, or card draws.

I have played with at least 3 different Vader tweaks, and every single one addresses this design flaw of Choke x3 in one way or another (interestingly enough every single one has a DSD greater than A3, the other difference is either removing Wraths or Chokes). Every single one also adds at least one of the three things I just mentioned, and the deck design is better for it. If you add another element like movement, power defense or card draws, suddenly his PtV is exactly as Tim described it at the outset. Without those things, I think the deck fails to meet the design it was intended to meet.

And now I'm the one who can't let it go...guess I'm hypocritical...

Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.