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Re: Tweaking Vader
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Darth Trumpetus
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Dark Lord of the Sith
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: 2266
Nov 16 07 12:44 PM
And Fish, since you can't seem to let it go either, let me explain, once again, one last time what I said in my very first post.
First I disagree that ATE accomplishes anything to keep the opponent at bay. We disagree there, and this is the crux of why we'll never see eye to eye on the rest of it. For you and Tim, ATE keeps the opponent at bay long enough to setup his DD and then a late emerging with 5 attacks and DSDs for the win. But, if you assume that ATE is ineffective at keeping an opponent at bay (as I do) and that it is basically nothing more than an A3, then you're left with one cards to counter his lack of defense and mobility to keep opponents at bay: YSANC. I've conceded that YSANC can be effective in pulling movement and damage dealing specials, which does help counter his lack of defense a tiny bit. With me so far?
Ok, what's left in the deck? You've got Choke x3, Wrath x3, DSD x2 and TD x2. His only real way to kill you is through his red deck and the DD to the major that is contained in five cards: Wrath and TD. In 1 vs 1 games, Wrath does damage to the minor character, 6 damage total. That leaves you with Choke x3, which only affects minor characters. What I said before, and what I've continually said is that it is redundant and unnecessary for a deck design to deal 24 damage to minor characters in 1 vs 1 games. This will *always* leave you with at least 1 completely and utterly useless card in the deck (potentially it is 2 useless cards depending on the order of Wraths and Chokes in the shuffle, and if Vader makes it to the reshuffle then you absolutely have 3 useless and 3 other weaker cards coming up the 2nd time through the deck).
So, how does Choke, Wrath and DSD work against each other? As I said before, DSD has better odds of healing Vader when used against minor characters, because on average, their defense values are lower than major characters. DSD's only real value to the deck is the healing ability (and *maybe* the fact that it's an attack and will pull a defense card). So, it means that DSD is most effective against minor characters. If you buy that (which I absolutely do), then you've got two more cards that ALSO kill minor characters. Choke does it *really* well, and Wrath is pretty effective, especially against weak minors. So, not only do you have 24 DD to minors, you also have a power combat card that works best against minors. If you use DSD against minors, it just ensures that you'll have no use for Choke (but if you save it for majors, then you can pretty much count on 0 healing from it). But if you Choke then it devalues Wrath and the effectiveness of DSD. These cards DO NOT WORK TOGETHER. They all accomplish the same thing (read: killing minors), and using one of them means you won't be able to use the other.
IN ADDITION to the fact that these three cards work against each other, you've got the fact that these 8 cards work against the rest of the deck too! What does Vader's deck do best aside from killing minors? Deal direct damage to majors. If you kill off minors, then the major can heal back. I absolutely don't think that the trade off of 3 dead cards for Vader to 9 heal cards for the major is a good trade-off. The opponent isn't getting 9 dead cards as you described it...they're getting 9 heal cards. Sure, they aren't as valuable as heal cards as they were as combat cards, but at least they can still be used. Ever tried using a Choke when there are no minors on the board? Furthermore, Vader has no movement...so it makes it incredibly easy for the opponent to run away from Vader and heal. Sure they aren't drawing, but if Vader can't keep up (which he can't), then it doesnt' really matter. Yoda and Emp are the only characters that can't move in addition to the die roll when their minors are gone, which means it usually works against Vader to kill minor characters.
I will not argue that in all matches killing the minors is a negative, because clearly against decks with uber minors (like Han, Jango and to some extent Anakin), it is absolutely more beneficial to Vader, because those minors have powerful talent cards in addition to their basic sets. But, against decks with weak minors (which is the vast majority), Vader isn't accomplishing much by destroying their minors.
I don't know how many times I have to describe this concept...if you still don't agree, then fine. We'll have to agree to disagree once again.
Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.
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