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Re: Tweaking Vader
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fishfleas2000
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: 1215
Nov 15 07 1:29 PM
QUOTE
(Hags888 @ November 15, 2007 02:10 pm)
Negatives:
1. Killing minors quickly allows the major to heal and counter his hit you anywhere game.
2. While he can take down minors quickly, doing so usually leaves him with dead cards in 1 vs 1 games.
3. His power attacks rarely do what they were designed to do, because they are dependent on doing damage. An A3 will hardly ever do any damage, because the average defense value (all possible defense cards in the game) is 2.48 (I challenge someone to prove that number wrong
).
4. There are too many built-in design weaknesses, so that his "Path to Defeat" is too guaranteed. His lack of: movement, power attacks of 4 or greater, card draws, power defense, strong minors and basic deck defense are too many missing elements. No other Hasbro deck is missing that many elements or has that many designed-in weaknesses all at the same time.
5. The combination of (Choke x3) + (Wrath x3) + (DSD x2) is counterproductive in 1 vs 1 games, and those cards work against each other.
6. His overall win/loss record means the deck is one of the weakest in the game, and this contributes to it being not fun to play
7. DSD is further weakened by the presence of ATE and a Red deck. In other words, characters will always defend against Vader if they are able, meaning this card hardly ever works as support for yet another reason.
So, feel free to argue about my list of negatives or present more positives. But, this is how I see the deck design. My opinion is that the deck is poorly designed and in need of tweaks.
Scott:
I'm not going to go into a ton of detail... I have a paper to write, but I wanted to comment quickly.
Negatives:
1. Killing minors and allowing them to heal is actually good for Vader. It allows him to more easily setup an ATE kill. If an opponent discards to heal, then they have one less card in hand. If you keep attacking at that point, then they will run out of defense faster than you can say tiddly winks. So this isn't really an issue.
2. Say he only uses 1 of the kill only minor cards, and then the minors are all dead. That gives him 2 dead cards in the deck, and that gives the opponent 9 almost dead cards in the deck. That doesn't sound like too bad of a trade off to me.
3. ATE works the way it's intended. It's a 3 because you want to only play it when you think you have the guy ready to be "Frozen". If it was higher then there would be less planning with it. DSD I've already stated that I could see it being tweaked to increase the health benefit, but I'ld have to test to get the exact value.
4. His path to defeat is the same as maul, except that maul has one big defensive card. Even then Maul does damage to himself on two of his power defenses. It's a weakness, but I wouldn't put it as a negative.... As you said before every deck should have a path to defeat.
5. This claim is being made by you and Roman, but you have yet to have shown a strategic depiction of how that really works. Tim and I have both given in depth anyliss on how the cards work together. The only dead weight card you get is the one that damages only minors. The rest all work toward the idea of damaging the opponent, and the dead weight card actually has a good trade off once it becomes dead weight.
7. No offense, but the EDOL is NOT the only place this game is being played, and the win loss record is dependant on a TON of variables. This isn't a sound argument. I find it ironic though that Vader is involved in a number of the EDOL picked tie breaker matchups, that they deem the most evenly matched.
I'll be interested in what you say to those...
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