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Re: Tweaking Vader
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Roman Farraday
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Dark Lord of the Sith
Posts
: 2770
Nov 15 07 10:20 AM
I'm done arguing after this, I will respond to a couple of things, but it's clear to me that we all have very different experiences playing with Vader. No one will ever win the argument. I will, however, go back to some facts that seem to be ignored:
1) Vader is the most talked about, most tweaked original deck in the game. You don't have to think there's anything wrong with it, but it's a fact that many, many people do. Arguments that implicate that people don't know how to play the deck or that nothing's wrong with it just seem to ignore this. Again, there are other weak decks that don't get nearly the same attention.
2) Vader's EDOL win-loss record is very poor. His ineffectiveness is not an opinion, it's a fact. In my playing circle, he's very bad. In your playing circle, maybe he's not so bad (no one ever says he's good). But we keep records on these decks to settle disputes such as these. He has a poor win-loss record, and is therefore a weak deck.
This thread was to help us figure out WHY Vader is so talked about, and the main argument I'm hearing from Tim and Fish is that there's nothing wrong with him. Then why so much talk? Why the tweaks? Oh I get it, people don't know how to play him. Oh it's because he's not strong enough for everyone. Those arguments might capture a piece of what's going on here, but clearly there is something more wrong with him to generate this repeated discussion, over many years, by many different players.
IamRemote:
QUOTE
In fact, in all the many rankings we've had for these decks, I don't think I've ever seen one that has Vader at the bottom.
He's right near the bottom but even then, what's your point, that he's not the weakest deck? I already stated my reasons for him being too weak for me. Jango, Boba and Han are near the bottom too, yet you don't hear nearly as much discussion about them. Don't you wonder why?
QUOTE
Does that mean he lacks power?
Let's just say, he's low on power.
QUOTE
Is he helpless?
No one's arguing this. That's a straw-man argument.
QUOTE
Does anyone feel that Vader and Luke's decks were designed together?
No question about it. I'd argue that the 2 decks are a lot of fun to play against each other, not nearly as fun against others. It's almost like Luke's deck was designed to play against Vader, but not a whole lot else.
QUOTE
Isn't Anger frustrating? Royal Command? Three IWNFYs?
Anger and Royal Command are both frustrating, so don't you wonder why no one ever complains about Anakin's deck or Palpatine's deck?
QUOTE
Inferior?
Yes, in terms of the number of cards that work together to achieve victory Inferior to every other deck in the game, I'd say, even Jango. Not because of lack of strength, but because they don't work together.
From Fish:
QUOTE
Vader's weakness is his lack of defense,
And lack of attack power. And lack of movement. And lack of drawing power. And weak minors. He's just riddled with weaknesses and his only real strength is damage from a distance.
QUOTE
You just have to accept that 1 or 2 [Chokes] may be dead weight.
I think your point about having 3 Chokes (or for that matter, 3 Wraths) makes a lot of sense for the purpose of getting them fast and maintaining deck consistency. The 3 Chokes aren't a problem to me so much as the 3 Chokes, 3 Wraths and 2 DSDs, and the way they work against each other.
I'll just say that if you think nothing's wrong with the deck, you are ignoring many ED-ers over many years, dismissing them as either not smart enough to play the deck the right way or too involved in the character to accept that some characters are weaker than others. The arguments in this thread have helped me identify that while the second point definitely holds true for me, there's a whole lot more going on (otherwise, I would've just tweaked the values of his cards to make him stronger). I appreciate Tim's and Fish's counter-arguments because they've helped me solidify my own thinking on this, and I think Scott has done a great job of identifying WHY so many ED-ers have been so frustrated with Vader for so long.
"There is a sense of satisfaction in looking at your men all ready for the fray" -- W. Somerset Maugham
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