QUOTE (volleyballgy @ November 14, 2007 08:34 pm)
The better-supported a PtV is, the more likely that PtV will pay off, resulting in victory -- PtV is the path to VICTORY, after all. Cards working together also makes a stronger deck than cards working against one another. Maybe an example will help: I have this deck, and it's too strong. What can I do to make it weak? I can make the cards work against each other and take away support for the PtV. It is a very effective way to design a weak deck -- what better, in fact? After all, if you simply weaken the cards themselves, even the perfect draw is weak and doesn't guarantee victory. It's only bad design for the cards to work against each other and the PtV to be insufficiently supported if the deck is supposed to be strong, because otherwise the design does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is precisely how I see Vader's deck.

I figured you would try to make this argument, and this is where, I feel, you're missing the whole point of the DT#8 article. For me, all I'm concerned about is the design of the deck (all those numbered points from a few posts ago).

What better way to make a deck weaker? Well, the BEST way is to simply lower the respective values of each of the elements that either make up the PtV or support it. This ensures the "design" of the deck remains intact and effective, but allows you to simply raise and lower the strength of the deck from WITHIN the design itself. When you have the design right, all you need to do is tweak values (aka, raise this attack value, lower this defense value, add more DD, subtract a few movement points, etc). But, by sabotaging the deck design for the sole reason of making it weaker raises my eyebrows and makes me think...well...this design sucks...the design had to purposefully build cards that don't work well together to make the deck weaker. This is essentially the argument you are trying to make, and you are trying to twist my argument into the opposite. And I am not trying to make that argument. I've said that over and over.

I am in no way shape or form arguing that the design of the deck makes it weak and THEREFORE it needs tweaking in the design IN ORDER TO make it stronger. All I'm saying is, the design sucks and here's why (see above posts). OF COURSE the design makes THIS deck weaker (not every bad design makes a deck weak...check out any number of the crazy over-powered decks with poor designs that have been posted over the years). But fixing the design will not necessarily result in a stronger deck, at least that's not the intent of anything I am saying. And if you went ahead and made tweaks to the design according to the problems that I think are there...and it DID make it stronger...at least you'd have a design that worked. Then all you'd have to do is tweak the respective values of the elements within the deck to achieve the proper power level. If you swapped out red for green for example, or dropped a choke in favor of a power D or movement, this could very well make the deck stronger, but it would give it better design. Once you have the better design, if you're concerned about the relative power THEN you could include lowering Throw Debris to 3 DD...or perhaps upping DSD to A6.

My point is, the design is unsatisfactory. Power level is not the thing you point to, to establish if a deck design is good or not. I wish now that I have never even brought up Vader's play records, because I've confused the issue by doing so. All I'm concerned about is how the different elements (like HP, basic deck, discarding, card draws, DD, etc) work together (or not) in the deck. How do those elements achieve a PtV and how do they support it? Once you have the right elements in place, then you can begin tweaking the values of each element to get the strength right. This is deck design 101 in my opinion.

If I am guilty of anything "a priori" it is that I assume every deck has to have a good design, and that a good design has a "theme" or "path to victory" and that every card is related to the PtV and supports it sufficiently. Do all of my decks do this? Nope...but they should. Do all of the Hasbro decks do this? Almost! I would argue that Luke and Vader are the only two that need deck design tweaks. The rest would only need deck "element" tweaks. Fish did a nice job of separating the two in an earlier post...

I said it before, but it bears repeating. Take a deck like Jango. The design of it is GREAT! I have no complaints, because all the cards work well together and support his movement + teamwork PtV. Does this mean his deck is strong? Nope. Your argument that "it's only bad design for the cards to work against each other and the PtV to be insufficiently supported if the deck is supposed to be strong, because otherwise the design does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is precisely how I see Vader's deck" only holds if the opposite is true. For this statement to be correct, it would need all weak decks to have deck design flaws, and all strong decks to not have deck design flaws. Jango and Han are the prime examples of decks that are weak, but have excellent deck designs. They have solid Paths to Victory that are well supported...it just so happens that the cards they have contain weak values when compared to other decks. Again, you can point to a large number of custom decks that are strong, but have terrible deck designs.

I feel that yes, Vader's deck is weak. And yes, his deck design is poor. Do I think that the deck design contributes to his weak performance? Absolutely. But don't think that I am advocating for changing the design to make it "stronger". I am advocating changing the design to make it "better". Again, we can adjust the values of each element later to get the strength of the deck right. So, I am really not following you anymore Tim...I'm just not understanding where you're coming from with your argument that I am assuming Vader's deck needs to be strong. I just need to keep saying it I guess. "I do not think that we need to tweak Vader's deck, because I think it needs to be stronger." Have I said that anywhere before? I've certainly said I want to tweak it because it sucks...and I've certainly pointed to his win/loss record to show that it doesn't perform well. But when have I outright said I think we need to tweak the design of the deck to make him stronger?

Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.