Yuku free message boards
Username or E-mail:
Password:
Forgot
Password?
Sign Up
Grab the Yuku app
Search:
Home
Forum
Wiki
Downloads
FAQ
Links
Epic Duels
>
General
>
Tweaking Vader
0 Points
Search this Topic:
«Prev
1
2
3
4
5
6
Next»
Jump
Add Reply
New Topic
New Poll
Forum Jump
General
ED Links
Customs
New Custom Decks
Game Rules
Star Wars Themed Expansions
Force Unleashed Playset
Community Project Development
Epic Duels II
Tournament Custom Set
10YA Revised Set
EU Expansion
EU FAQ
Everything Epic Duels
Super Smash Brothers
Biblical Epic Duels
Avatar: The Last Airbender
DC ED
Marvel Duels
Street Fighter ED!
Ali's Space Expansion
Serenifly Duels
Dragonlance Duels
REED: Resident Evil Epic Duels
DuelsScape
LOTR ED
Pokemon Duels
Generic Talk
Forum Admin
Generic Links
EDOL Talk
EU 2v2 Feedback
Design-A-Deck Contest!
<< Previous Topic
Next Topic >>
Re: Tweaking Vader
Author
Comment
Darth Trumpetus
#1
[url]
[-]
Dark Lord of the Sith
Posts
: 2266
Nov 13 07 9:28 PM
QUOTE
(volleyballgy @ November 13, 2007 08:32 pm)
Hags... I'm not sure where the common ground we can meet on is. I believe Vader's deck was intentionally designed as a weak 1v1 deck, offsetting his strength in 2v2. I believe Choke works
really well
with Wrath in making this happen. I believe the kind of support you are suggesting would make his deck too strong in 1v1 and WAY too strong in 2v2. I believe all his cards support the PtV as described previously. I don't believe a design that weakens a deck is a flawed design. This is what I find as your a priori argument: "Cards weaken one another => PtV not supported well => poor design." If we don't assume the PtV is supposed to be well-supported, the last conclusion doesn't hold. Please correct me if this is not your argument.
First of all, a simple flow chart of X leads to Y leads to Z does not accurately represent my argument at all. I've repeadedly said that there are multiple elements that lead to your last step of "poor design". I'll restate them again.
1. Is the PtV well supported?
2. Do the cards work well together generally?
3. Does the deck have an acceptable win/loss record?
4. How is the deck playability (aka, are there situations where you always can or can't make the cards work?)
5. Does the deck match other Hasbro trends or break them too much (this one contains all those things like talent card distributions, basic decks, HP ranges, etc...and really only applies to custom decks)?
6. Is the deck fun (this one is entirely subjective, but still valid)?
So, your first step of "weaken one another" is partly true, but it doesn't capture my entire argument well enough. I feel Tim, that you are caught up in the numbers of everything and are placing far too much emphasis on the win/loss record or "deck power" in evaluating the deck or in calling it "effective" or "ineffective". There are other elements to consider in the design that are less "objective", such as the ones above. I feel the cards do not work together because in 1 vs 1 you are *always* left with useless cards (unless your opponent is Chewie and he plays his heal card). I feel the PtV is not well supported, because it's missing key support cards like movement, card draws, power defense, better healing, etc. I feel the deck has too low a win/loss record. I feel the deck playability is severely limited, because the PtV is so clunky and the deck is not easy to use (this is mainly because of #1 and #2). The deck pretty much matches the Hasbro trends (it IS a hasbro deck, so it contributes to the trends by default). And I think the deck just isn't fun for all of those reasons.
So, yes, I agree that your #2 leads to #3, but a simple X then Y flow chart isn't really accurate, because as I've repeatedly said there are multiple aspects to consider in deciding if a design is "poor" or not. And some of these aspects lead from one to another on it's way to deciding that the deck design is "poor". It just isn't a linear progression, so much as it is a web or some sort of branching diagram that all points to "poor design".
I'm sensing that, Tim, you're trying to reorganize my arguments in an attempt to "prove it wrong." Rather than do that, I would challenge you to present a separate argument that supports your idea that the deck design is solid. I still haven't seen an argument in support of his deck design (I *have* seen arguments to support his win/loss record in that his depiction on screen is weak...but that's about it). I'll posit the question again that I raised before:
QUOTE
I have yet to see a convincing argument that says, "The design is solid, and here's why...these cards do this and this and this, and the cards work together well because of X,Y,Z".
I've drawn my line in the sand, staked my claim, whatever, and supported it with what I believe to be solid, convincing arguments. At this point, I've seen attempts to prove my arguments wrong, but have still not seen any counterarguments. If I've missed it...somebody repost it! How can anyone defend this deck design in 1 vs 1? At the very LEAST this deck needs it's current cards tweaked in an attempt to correct the design. But I refuse to concede that the Hasbro design is "good", as is, in 1 vs 1.
Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.
My Recent Posts
<< Previous Topic
Next Topic >>
Add Reply
Forum Jump
General
ED Links
Customs
New Custom Decks
Game Rules
Star Wars Themed Expansions
Force Unleashed Playset
Community Project Development
Epic Duels II
Tournament Custom Set
10YA Revised Set
EU Expansion
EU FAQ
Everything Epic Duels
Super Smash Brothers
Biblical Epic Duels
Avatar: The Last Airbender
DC ED
Marvel Duels
Street Fighter ED!
Ali's Space Expansion
Serenifly Duels
Dragonlance Duels
REED: Resident Evil Epic Duels
DuelsScape
LOTR ED
Pokemon Duels
Generic Talk
Forum Admin
Generic Links
EDOL Talk
EU 2v2 Feedback
Design-A-Deck Contest!
Share This
Email to Friend
del.icio.us
Digg it
Facebook
Blogger
Yahoo MyWeb
«Prev
1
2
3
4
5
6
Next»
Jump
Epic Duels
>
General
>
Tweaking Vader
Click to subscribe by RSS
Click to receive E-mail notifications of replies