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Re: Tweaking Vader
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Darth Trumpetus
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Dark Lord of the Sith
Posts
: 2266
Nov 9 07 10:20 AM
For whatever reason all the posts between Tim's two replies are not there, but you can still read them here in the reply window.
In any case, I see what you're saying about the attrition path. It is essentially what I described as Vader's direct damage path. In fact, the path you describe is really a combination of the two I first mentioned. It's just that you've made them one path by saying, "First I'll use path one, DD...then I'll use path two, attack, attack, attack." The difference being, for you ATE helps setup the DD path, whereas for me, I think it sets up the attack, attack, attack path, although I do see your point. I think for the most part we're in agreement on the path to victory, and we're splitting hairs by calling it one path or two. But, you have to admit, you could do the "attack, attack, attack" path first, before the direct damage path if that's the way the cards fell...and because of that it would seem they are more two separate paths than they are one larger overarching path. I would argue the two paths work against each other, especially in draws where the DD comes in the second half of the deck, or is spread out evenly through the whole deck. If the DD comes early, and the offense comes later, then and only then, will the two paths work together.
So, *if* you get the perfect draw, combining these two paths in the way you describe to form one path can work (although, even then there are still several counters an opponent can use). But, you said it yourself, "that this just doesn't pan out for Vader most of the time."
So, we agree the deck is less than effective. The thing we're discussing here is *why* the deck is less than effective. I think we've pretty much nailed it on the head. Vader lacks, card draws (which would help him get to his DD faster), movement (which would buy him time to get to his DD), added defense (to sustain himself a bit longer to get his DD), etc. In a nutshell, Vader's deck (regardless of how you analyze the various paths) is totally dependent on his DD, and getting it all off as soon as possible. Palpatine's deck is very similar in this regard. If you compare the two designs, you can see where Palpatine's deck is successful and Vader's is not.
Palpatine: Future Foreseen to dig deeper and get the cards he needs when he needs them
Vader: nothing
Palpatine: Has a discard game to slow down the opponent with FL and LGoYH
Vader: Has YSANC which only one token card that only pulls special cards
Palpatine: Has a green deck and 8 healing points, buying him time to get his FL
Vader: nothing but a red deck and ineffective DSDs
Palpatine: YWD paired with Meditation is a devasting combo that will ensure at least one if not two undefended attacks...combined with his 12DD, this is usually enough to beat most characters
Vader: has nothing at all like this
Palpatine: Has Royal Guard with the best minor basic set in the game to provide added positioning, defense and offense
Vader: has STs, the worse minors in the game
Palpatine: Royal Command at least gives him one token movement option to get him out of a tight spot every now and then
Vader: no movement at all
Palpatine: offense is limited to 3s and 4s of Green with Strong++ minor (and one token 5-attack)
Vader: has a red deck with lots of 4s and 5s
So you can see all the support Palpatine has in the way of defense, healing, strong minors, movement, discarding and card draws. He's got everything he needs to play a prolonged game that relies on DD. Vader on the other hand has nothing but a token discarding card and a healing attack that rarely works. Sure, ATE can keep the opponent away, but if you're a smart player, you'll take your chances and play aggressively against Vader, because he has no answers to stop you outside of getting lucky and landing ATE undefended. That just isn't enough of a deterrent to make the deck design effective IMO.
Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.
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