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Re: Tweaking Vader
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Darth Trumpetus
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Dark Lord of the Sith
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: 2266
Nov 7 07 1:26 AM
QUOTE
QUOTE
(Hags888 @ November 06, 2007 10:50 pm)
but even so, whatever paths you pick and choose out of his cards, they aren't supported well enough.
Here's where I disagree, though it might be semantics in what we each consider "well enough." I only consider Vader hopeless against three decks. Does that mean I expect to win against the other eight? No (that was in another thread, but I'm not an experienced enough forum user to post a link).
I consider several things as "well enough" in a deck design. Part of the equation is the raw win/loss record. In this respect Vader truly does "suck" against everyone but Luke, Jango and Han. Another part of it is far less objective. It's the part that you perceive after many tests, and lots of experience dueling. It's the part where you sit back and look at the many different combinations of cards that have been in your hand and situations the deck has been in where it either had a chance to win, or didn't. We all have our various strategies and perspectives on the decks, and in this regard, I have yet to find a consistent strategy for Vader that works, or a flexible one that works given different opponents. Perhaps I'm dueling against opponents that are too good, or perhaps I'm just getting bad draw after bad draw, or perhaps my "strategery" isn't good enough, but my experience with the deck has rarely if ever been positive (and that Vader sweep over Mace? Check the logfile...both were sweet Vader draws and terrible Mace draws. It was actually a fairly negative experience for both of us seeing Mace lose like that...it was a prime example of what I just mentioned, Vader *can* win given perfect situations).
The last part of the puzzle is looking at the deck "on paper" and seeing how the cards work together. This is where a bit more objective analysis comes into play (although, even then, it's still somewhat subjective as it depends on the person's perspective who is doing the analyzing). This is where I noted the two paths to victories that I perceived, as well as how much the deck works against itself. In that regard, I noticed a lot of things that didn't work well (check my earlier posts for that).
So, all of that combined (win/loss ratio, playability, deck design) says to me "this deck sucks". I don't think there is any other deck in the Hasbro set that utterly fails those three main areas of analysis in the way that Vader's deck does. While the Emperor's deck may require less strategy to use, the design of the deck, it's playing feel and win/loss record are completely opposite of Vader. Ease of Use and strategy can easily get mixed up and confused with the sort of design analysis that we're trying to do here. I would argue that Vader's poor deck design absolutely requires much more strategy...and it requires it because the deck design is so poor...how else can you manage a win with Vader unless you use some crazy inventive strategery? Palpatine's deck, while it is designed around Force Lightning and You Will Die (rather simple elements), he's got so much support surrounding them, he will surely draw the cards he needs to win. Future Foreseen is a key support card, and his strong minors, healing, discarding and green deck defense ensure he'll have enough staying power and resourcing power to get the five cards he needs to kill you (FL x4 and YWD). Furthermore, the "unstoppable death combo" is one that takes a lot of patience and strategy to pull off. So, no, I don't agree that "from a design standpoint...Emperor's is far worse". Maybe from an ease of use standpoint (assuming you like decks that require lots of complex strategy) it's "worse" than Vader.
But, I continually point to the Emperor's deck as a solid design for a deck built around direct damage. Vader's deck is also build around direct damage, and they have nearly polar opposite support cards. Palpatine is a Tier 1 deck, and has good playability, Vader is a crappy Tier III deck with terrible playability.
QUOTE
I will say, though, that I would expect his records against Anakin, Boba, and most particularly Dooku would even out some given more Duels. This is not to say I think he would have an edge against any of them, but I do think he isn't as bad against those three as the record indicates.
Only time will tell. In my experience, Vader's deck performs pretty up the same way as these EDOL records indicate...
QUOTE
But it means I have a game plan going into the Duel to execute, or in DT! terms there's a Path to Victory I can follow.
This is interesting, and I think this is where "strategy" and "path to victory" get confused. I remember debating this very topic with IamRemote awhile back. How different are these two concepts? What makes them similar? I'll open that up for others to discuss...
Darth Trumpetus...trumpeter of fury.
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