Roman Farraday wrote:
With all due respect, Tim, you really think Vader's deck isn't broken? His win-loss record speaks to his effectiveness. His ineffectiveness isn't an opinion so much as it is a fact. I've heard arguments that Vader shouldn't be very strong, but I'll go back to my original argument: A weak Vader isn't fun. A strong Vader would be more fun. I'll proceed with all arguments based upon this premise. The ideal relative strength of Vader is a topic for another thread (along with actual tweak suggestions). The victory through attrition path that you suggest really only works against the weakest of decks. His deck doesn't really support this path -- a victory-through-attrition deck would have more than 3 power attacks (higher than A3) and likely some defense cards. If his path to victory is attrition, then his is a very poor deck.

I'm not picking on you with this statement, but whenever someone states "A deck sucks," there's always someone to say "Well, not if you know how to play it," and/or "If X, Y and Z happen, it can be effective."

Best example is not Vader, but Luke. Luke sucks. Yes he can win and yes, you need to know how to play him. He can be extremely effective, in fact. But look at his win-loss record. He loses most of the time. People know how to play against him. You need to get your cards in the right order, and only then do you have a
good chance of winning. If you don't get them in the right order, you lose.

Second best example of a deck that has merit but ultimately sucks is Vader. Sure he can win and yes he can be effective. Especially if you're going to single out decks like Jango, Han and Luke, he can win, and win often. But for every Jango, Han and Luke there's an Obi-Wan, Maul and Yoda. I think more telling is Vader vs Dooku or Vader vs Mace, because Dooku and Mace are pretty much average decks. Vader may have swept Mace once, and his record vs Dooku might improve upon 0-6 with more playing, but I would expect him to lose 75% or more of his games against these 2. I can't see him achieving victory without a good draw for him accompanied by a bad draw for them. This is where Luke's design is superior. Luke, at least, could whip either one with a good draw and good use of IWNFY, not necessarily requiring them to get a bad draw. Vader requires them to have a bad draw to win. Vader can't really win an attrition game, or really any game, against the other Jedi/Sith except for Luke.

Now, strategy vs path to victory. To me, strategy is an overall playing focus such as aggressive, keep-away, etc. Path to victory is what you're going to use to win the game. I think Scott captured the reason for Vader's lack of success: He has 2 paths to victory that don't support each other, and that require divergent strategies: Either a keep-away strategy where you use your direct damage, or an aggressive strategy where you use ATE. He'd be so much better a deck if he just did one or the other, and all his cards were organized around that concept. More power attacks and defense could support an aggressive strategy that would lead to victory through ATE or victory through attrition, and the 2 paths to victory wouldn't work against each other.

I've been thinking about Vader lately, and frankly, there isn't a deck that I hate nearly as much.  I think Jango needs a boost, but at least he's kind of supposed to be weak, and he does have a clear hit and run strategy.  Flamethrower isn't strong enough as a card, IMO.  Sniper Shot just doesn't work the way it should.  But the design isn't completely broken.  Jango's game is clearly "Hit and run" and he does that.  Jango's issue is an issue of strength... he's just a little too weak.  So its fairly easy to tweak him by messing with values.  I think making Sniper Shot have to be completely blocked to avoid the A6 (I do NOT support doing this to ATE, there's a huge difference between a 3/6 variable and a 3/20 variable, the latter is just too powerful against certain decks) and amping up flamethrower and I think he'd be a playable deck.  

I'm not really sure what the answer to Luke is.  I think Justice needs a higher base attack value, either A6 or A7, so at least Luke has two huge attacks if Leia gets killed or four middle of the road attacks if she doesn't, rather than just two big attacks and then having to sit on Justice or discard it due to IWNFY.  Luke has no direct damage either, so the kill power is really, really bad there.  But, I think that deck is workable.  I actually don't think the red deck necessarily works against IWNFY.  The red deck ensures that Luke will always have more offense to draw in his basic deck.  What really works against IWNFY is the fact that he really has no choice but to hold Justice... unless he wants to use it as an A4.  I think making Justice an A7 alone might fix that deck.  I'd like to see "Luke's In Trouble" heal 4 instead of 3, makes Leia just a little more dangerous, but even making the opponent choose between facing x2A10 or x4 A7 rather than x2 A10 or x2 A7 I think would make a big difference.  Again, that's a deck that's easy to fix just by messing with a value or two.

Emp... honestly, his deck "works" but I just don't really like it.  I don't find DD cheesing to be really all that fun.  Personally I'd like to tweak him so his meditation doesn't heal as much (4 extra HP is a LOT in a green deck, I'd like to see it reduced to 3) and I'd really like to see YWD cost two actions, or at least end your turn when played.  The YWD + Meditation combo is frankly too good, IMO.  It drives his DD count to like 20, which is absurd (Theoretically it could be 21).  Even if YWD took two actions to use, it would be possible to do the same combo with Let Go Of Your Hatred + Meditation, but at least it would be a little harder.  Then again, I'm somewhat biased because I don't really like the deck much.  I feel like the most powerful decks should also require the most strategy to use.  The decks that are really easy to use should also be mediocre, IMO.

Obi... well... there are a lot of problems with Obi.  He's just good at everything.  But again, tinkering with numbers could make him into a good versatile deck.  

Vader... I really see no way to do this with Vader, because, as has been discussed, its not just that he sucks, its that his game actively works against himself.  Sure, you could make Vader "powerful" by amping up Wrath, DSD, or whatever, but that really wouldn't fix the underlying problem of the deck.  I mean, if you really wanted to you could make ATE a straight A20, and that would make the deck powerful  (and highly variable) but it wouldn't really fix  anything.

I haven't implemented any of the tweaks I've been considering yet, but I've come up with a theoretical option that I'm curious what your guys thoughts are on.  It doesn't actually change any card names, but it does power up three cards, and it completely changes the card effect on "Wrath".

The basic cards are still the same.

The talents are

x3 Wrath- A6 Target must choose and discard a card.

x3 Choke- Choose a minor character, that character receives 6 damage.

x2 Dark Side Drain- A5 If Vader does damage with this card, he recovers damage equal to the damage done.

x2 Throw Debris- Choose any character, that character receives 4 damage.

x1 Your Skills Are Not Complete- Choose an opponent to reveal his hand and discard all special AND power combat cards.

x1 All Too Easy- A3 If unblocked, A20 (This is only an A20 if no defense card AT ALL is played... same as the original.)


Honestly, this still isn't really my ideal deck.  As Darth Trumpetus said, I don't think its possible to completely fix Vader without completely revamping him.  He still has no movement, and no power defense.  The combination there is really bad.  Yoda has no movement, but he has three power defends and a green deck.  Boba does well against him because Yoda has a hard time keeping him away and Boba has lots of DD, but otherwise, Yoda is stout.  Vader is not stout.

But I think this deck, while having glaring weaknesses, would actually be more fun to play.  Wrath supports ATE, but not obscenely so.  ATE still isn't the main way the deck wins.  Using force attacks at a distance (Choke, Throw Debris) and then hitting them with your now improved lightsaber attacks is the way Vader wins.  But ATE at least has a small chance of working, so he still has a chance without throw debris (I don't think Wrath and DSD would be enough to win him games on his own, but with the ATE he might have a shot even if he doesn't get the debris).  Your Skills Are Not Complete being amped up hurts everyone but the Emperor to some extent, but it really hurts the decks that have power defense... the guys Vader has a real hard time killing.  I understand that to some extent Choke and DSD still work against each other.  You can't really fix that without making a new deck, IMO, or at least eliminating one card or the other.  That said, at least as an A5 you have a chance of dealing damage to an enemy major, especially if you combo it with Wrath.  So the cards don't work against each other nearly as much as you did before.

I know this is  an old thread, but what do you guys think of the above tweak/overhaul?  I could always change "Wrath" to "Unwise to Lower Your Defenses" as well, and that would probably make sense given the effect, but I kind of wanted to keep the card names the same so its a "tweak."  As it is, I know entirely getting rid of Wrath and replacing it with a new one is a big change.  But I don't think the deck can work with the classic Wrath, DSD, AND Choke in the same deck, at least not in 1 v 1.  The cards just work against each other too much.